Oprah, lockdown and forgiveness
Dan Roan: It's been two years since your doping admission. How have you experienced the time since then?
Lance Armstrong: It was as you would expect. So as the general public expected, not like me. The reactions were violent, perhaps more violent than I had anticipated. The way I told my story about Oprah back then... I think she did a good job, but it was still really brutal afterwards.
It was tough, it was exhausting and it required some patience. But now there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel.
DR: You speak of brutal, violent and worse than you expected. What exactly were you expecting?
LA: In my perception, the big bomb had already burst. The other confessions, the books and the articles about them. I thought most of it had already been said. However, when I personally spoke about it, it was a huge thing, especially here in the US.
What I told Oprah was too much for half the audience. ,What?! Doping, EPO and blood transfusions?' It was just too much.
The other half thought, 'That's not enough. He didn't tell the whole story. Where are the names?' So there were these two sides and neither of them was happy with what I was telling.
DR: Would you do it differently if you had the chance again?
LA: Yes, definitely. In hindsight, I would probably just wait and see. I wasn't ready for this interview at the time. But there were other reasons why I took this step - I'm god knows I'm not a patient person. I felt Oprah's show would be the right place. Maybe it would have just taken another three or six months - but maybe not.
No matter what I would have said, nothing would have gone down well. People were angry and upset and I totally understand that.
DR: Let's say you're the common man off the street, a cycling fanatic. Would you forgive Lance Armstrong today?
LA: Well, that's not a fair question. Look, I'll be honest - from my perspective, I'd say, 'Yeah, maybe it's almost there.'
But that's my opinion and it's no longer important. It's much more important what the people out there think. Regardless of whether they are cycling fans or members of my cancer foundation. Your judgment matters.
DR: But don't you hold the keys to this forgiveness yourself? Would you just say what people want to hear, the whole story, full cooperation - it's up to you.
LA: Okay, but is it really time? If I were to look at this as an outsider - and I know the whole story - and say, 'I don't think it's a good thing that this guy lied to me and that he did dope. I don't like the time he was racing, I don't think it's good at all.'
Also, like everyone else who was a professional at the time, I would have to think about what belongs in this story and what doesn't? Is that really all now? Was it just pro athletes who made a lot of money, or was there something else that I don't remember that I don't appreciate?
I put a lot of time and heart into my organization (Lance Armstrong Foundation, Livestrong) to help a lot of people. And I'll be honest, it hurts me that this is now being ignored and almost forgotten. In some places it is even dismissed as a PR gimmick. Because it wasn't. It meant an awful lot to me. When Livestrong approached me and said 'You have to resign' – that was extremely hard for me.
DR: Did that hurt you very much?
LA: I can't think of anything worse. But I have to go through this.
DR: Is there no way to go back? Are the bridges burned down forever?
LA: Forever is a long time. I'm still here after all.
DR: So reducing your lifetime ban would be the best way to help people again? Then what could you do?
LA: At least I wouldn't be so bored anymore! The ban has absolutely nothing to do with Livestrong or my impact on the cancer community, although it certainly is an impact. I don't know the stories of the fallen heroes in Great Britain, I only know the examples from the USA: Tiger Woods, Michael Vicks, Bill Clinton - these people can still make a difference.
It's more difficult for me. But I don't think my ability to start a new movement and help people depends solely on that.
DR: It almost sounds to me like it's not the ban that's the problem, but the fact that you're still not forgiven?
LA: The lockdown is something I can't control. For many people out there there is no alternative to it. Even if not everything is true - much is still hidden - I have only myself to blame for this matter. But I don't think that's where the key to forgiveness lies either.
We all want to be forgiven. There really are a lot of bad people out there who will never be forgiven, no matter how badly they want to. Maybe I belong to that group. But it seems like people are like, 'Okay, we've been listening to this for two years now. We know the stories and perhaps we will learn more from the CIRC report. Yes, he did this and that, like everyone else. Is that all right? Some get off with no punishment, some get six months, he life. Is that really fair?'
In the end it's like that - but I'm speaking from a different perspective: 'I've watched the tour seven times, I've seen who won, but actually he didn't. Nobody won, this sport has no winner, seven empty yellow jerseys. But on the other side there is Zabel's green jersey, although he stood, or polka dot jerseys of Virenque, who also admitted doping... what's wrong there?' I don't think that's good for our sport.
DR: Do you think you should get those seven titles back?
LA: I don't want to and can't decide that. But if I didn't win - who will? There has to be a winner, and that's where the fan speaks in me.
If you look at the Tour de France article on Wikipedia, there is a period without a winner during WW1, a second during WW2 and then it seems we've already had a third. There has to be a winner.
But I certainly don't want to bring myself into this. It was an unfortunate and at times terrible time. Still, it needs a winner.
DR: Do you see yourself as a scapegoat?
LA: Well, my actions and my handling of certain situations were unacceptable and I really deserved a punishment. Does this go too far? Of course I'll say 'yes, she does'. On the other hand, many people will say that it hasn't gone far enough.
DR: You mentioned boredom earlier – is it a big problem for you not being able to compete anymore?
LA: Well, I compete almost every day - at an extremely low level on the golf course!
It's also so frustrating because I think I could still compete at quite a high level in some events. But nobody cares and nobody wants to hear it.
But what bothers me even more is this: If my mother got multiple sclerosis tomorrow - thank God she's healthy - and I wanted to run the Boston Marathon to raise $100.000 for people with MS - I couldn't. I couldn't run, not follow, or anything else. My hands would be tied.
DR: And that's unfair?
LA: Does anyone really think that's fair?
DR: But isn't that also the purpose of punishment in a certain way? Shouldn't this deter others?
LA: And bystanders should foot the bill? I get absolutely nothing from participating in a marathon. I don't think anyone thinks it's fair - Lance Armstrong couldn't take part in a ping pong tournament or an archery competition.
Besides, where are all the others? Sure, I understand, I have to be punished. But we got a look at the bigger picture. Shouldn't we also include all actors?
DR: Your critics will say you were the ringleader. It wasn't just doping, but also bullying, intimidation, lying stories and betraying friends.
LA: Some of that is true, some of it isn't. Certainly things happened there that I regret and cannot be excused. As for the bullying and my position as a ringleader, not necessarily the truth.
DR: But you have refused to cooperate with Usada while others have. Had you done the same, you might have gotten away with a two-year ban, or even just a six-month ban. Only: We will never know because you didn't cooperate.
LA: That's an exciting thing. Travis [Tygart, head of Usada] would say to you, as he has countless times before, 'We gave Lance Armstrong the same chance we gave everyone else.'
But if you ask former teammates like George Hincapie, Christian Vande Velde, Dave Zabriskie, Tom Danielson, you name it, they will tell you how it went. You get the following call: 'You will not be penalized. Just say this…' – my phone didn't ring.
DR: Have you revealed things to CIRC and the UCI that Oprah didn't mention?
LA: I met with you twice. You asked me not to go into detail about this, but actually everyone knows anyway, it's no longer a secret. I think I can safely say that I have answered all the questions that have been put to me. Much of this is also known to the general public. I don't know how much is still hidden overall, but I've been 100% honest at all times.
I am in a situation where I no longer have to or want to protect anyone. There are seven more people I will always protect: their last names are all Armstrong.
DR: One of the big criticisms of your appearance on Oprah was that you didn't explain exactly how things went.
LA: How exactly did it play out?
DR: The doping.
LA: Everyone knows that anyway, right?
DR: We didn't hear it from you though.
LA: I don't want to go into detail here as to what I was asked and what I wasn't asked. But I can say: I have answered all the questions.
The problem for the cycling investigations is that they don't have the power to 'get' people to testify. The real reason we're sitting here, forget Usada, is that the Justice Department and other agencies have sent in government officials who have forced - excuse me, 'moved' - people to testify under threat of jail time.
DR: Aren't we sitting here because you cheated?
LA: Yes, of course. But I don't think there was any other generation of federal officials standing at the door with badges and guns and saying, 'Now you're going to answer our questions.'
DR: Do you hope that CIRC will reward your cooperation with a reduced sentence?
LA: I don't think it's their choice. You can make recommendations, nothing more.
DR: Then what are you hoping for?
LA: I'm not going to answer that because nobody wants to hear it. Nobody wants to hear how I feel wronged or if I think my sentence should be reduced. Nobody wants to hear that out of my mouth and nobody cares what I think about it. I got that now.
But I did everything I said. Honestly, in the past two years, I have kept all my promises.
We also talked about the commission of inquiry. I said then that I would be the first to audition there and I did. I was a real asshole to dozens of people for 15 years. I said I would make it up to these people. I did my best there with everyone who gave me the chance. I flew to Rome to talk to Simeoni, was in Paris and spoke to Bassons, in Florida to talk to Emma. I apologized to Andreu over the phone.
Others weren't interested. Everything I had to do, such as the countless court hearings, I did everything. I will continue to keep my word and that's perfectly okay, it's my duty.
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